The WineIndian Girl

Neha Lamba Grover: Hi everyone, welcome back to No Fox Given by Neha. I have with me Mohona Chaudhri, and I'm super excited to chat with her. Mohona is a wine consultant, she's an educator, she's a writer and journalist, and she's also a digital content creator. She has a handle on Instagram with like, what is it, 20,000 plus followers now, Mohona? called the Wine Indian Girl. And I'm super excited to have her. I say that again. welcome to the podcast, Mohona.

Mohona: Thank you. Thank you for inviting. Super kind of you.

Neha Lamba Grover: my podcast is about social identities and food because I find it a fun way of talking about social identities. I think the world is at a stage where this discussion about authenticity is getting heightened, right? What is a pure state of anything? And I just find the fact that you're a girl who's born and raised in India, living in Burgundy, doing what you do, right, in the business of wine, very fascinating. because I think it's really out there with identity and the the possible friction it could create. So let's start with your story, you know, how how where did you grow up and how did you get into this world of wine?

Mohona: So I grew up in Delhi. I'm a Delhi. I'm from Delhi. I was born and brought up in Delhi but then I started my hotel management with the O'Broy Group of Hotels. I joined their STEP program, which is basically a program you do just after you finish your high school. So I was working in the hotels and earning and I was literally in like a real life situation every single day because working in the hotels and that's where I fell in love with wines and I finished my undergrad during COVID so then when COVID came it was everything was so uncertain, you don't know what is going to happen and it was just so confusing. But then I found my course which I did my masters in, the Masters in Wine and Hospitality program in Paris with Catch Business School and Nicolas Hotel de Lausanne, the oldest hotel management school f in the world. So I did my masters program for there. I came to France In January 2021, I fin I was doing my masters, I worked in Michigan Star restaurants, I worked in wine shops, then I've also worked in wine tourism, and now I'm finally writing about wine, which I've always wanted to do and talk about a lot of things which are not so well addressed in this industry. So yeah, to give you an overview.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. No, so your your when you talk about writing, a lot of it is about myth busting. It's sort of it about making it fun and relatable. So there's a perception that the wine industry in Burgundy for for instance is very structured and s maybe s there's snobbery around it, that's expected. Did you find that?

Mohona: Yeah, yeah, definitely. no no sorry, sorry, continue.

Neha Lamba Grover: or is it a myth?

Mohona: Yeah yeah,

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: it's not a myth, it's actually a reality because wine industry in Bourgon is very rigid, very strict. I feel I've lived in Bordeaux for some time and now I've lived most of my time in France in Bourne. And I feel that the Bordeaux is more open and casual and they are not so rigid compared to the winemakers in Bourgon because the winemakers in Bourgon really consider themselves as really farmer farmer. So y when

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm-hmm.

Mohona: you go to visit a winery you're really visiting their home. Like their home is just there and underneath they have the cellar and they have the entire winery out there. So it's not a myth. Bourbon is really rigid, really in their values that this is what they follow, this is how it's supposed to be done. I see a lot of changes coming and I hope that it grows next next years, next few years and everything. But but the at the moment it's it's still very rigid.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. So it did did you have to learn French as well to communicate?

Mohona: Yeah, yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: So you have to learn French. You didn't grow up speaking it. And then

Mohona: So

Neha Lamba Grover: there's this separate language of the wines as well, which has its own vocabulary, right? So

Mohona: Yeah, yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: that was two different languages. Can you talk a little bit about that? And you know, did it culturally did it translate for you easily? Or

Mohona: So

Neha Lamba Grover: was it yeah.

Mohona: when I came to France, I did not know even one word of French. I only knew Bonjour and Baguette. That's it. That was my level of French when I came.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: to talk in terms of the language perspective and then the vocabulary of wine. So in the language perspective, I never took any course or I never took any you know classes or anything like that to do my language exam language practice. It was all working with the locals, listening to them talk and listening. Listening to what locals listen, to be honest, and that's how

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: I learned the language. And I in June actually, I June, yeah, in June actually I gave my language exam test for my visa and I scored the B1 level and I was like, thank you. So I was really happy about that. Now coming to the wine vocab. So before learning French as a language, I learned the wine vocabulary more. So even now when I'm in a room room full of people, I think I can express the wine better than I can express my views or opinion because I feel that the vocabulary which I caught on to early stages of me being in France has stayed with me and yeah I speak it's and sometimes I use the wine language in my everyday language because it's easier for me to make the person understand if I'm not able to make them understand because I speak like five languages and everything is in my head like jumbling on. So that's why

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: learned the wine vocab way faster and I'm way proficient in that than regular French Awards. Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: So do you feel like an insider now?

Mohona: No. no, no.

Neha Lamba Grover: No. So you still feel that you're not really a vi or

Mohona: No. Accepted.

Neha Lamba Grover: is it that there's a part of the industry that makes you feel like an outsider or is it every time you meet somebody new?

Mohona: actually I have both the experiences. In w in

Neha Lamba Grover: Okay.

Mohona: one hand I am being accepted as someone who is not French and knows so much about wine and about their culture. On the other side I am not French, how I am not French is enough for them to put that tag on me that I'm not French, and that's enough for them. Because just to give you a very simple example, like when we go for wine tastings with my husband who is French, when we go there, Always turning towards him and talking to him, even though I speak French, I know French, and my partner he's constantly saying to the winemaker that she's the person in wine, she is the person working in wine and everything, and she would understand it better. Yeah, that I'm the person in wine and I'm the person who talks about and knows about wine, they would still turn towards my partner and they will keep on talking to him about wine. So there is that side. Then there is other side where people are appreciating me about my knowledge. People are so surprised, which is kind of sad because why are you surprised? Anyone can know about wine. But anyway that

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: they are so interested to know how I got into this and why and what all I know and about my opinion. So I have two things, but most of the press dinners or trips which I have, I'm I am the only person of colour which I see. The representation is really low in that. So yeah these things I've noticed a lot.

Neha Lamba Grover: So does that do you think it gives you an advantage, an outsider's perspective?

Mohona: Yeah. I I it it really Very honest, sometimes I'm

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: really frustrated that why am I the only outsider? But sometimes I'm really

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: happy that I am the only outsider, and people who will come after me they will not feel the way I'm feeling right now because I am in that dilemma if I'm being accepted, or if I say something wrong, will I be judged or not? Because I'm not from their culture, I'm not from the same ethnicity, same area, and everything. So I'm always constantly. thinking that while having conversations and stuff but on the other hand I'm also happy that the people who will come after me will not have hopefully will not have to experience this.

Neha Lamba Grover: So let me be the devil's advocate, right? There's a lot of talk about cultural appropriation. You have in some of your posts also talked about you've referred to Dr. Krishnanindu Ray's phraseology of food hierarchies, and he was on my podcast a little earlier, and we discussed this hierarchy of how French food becomes artistry, whereas, say, Mexican or Chinese food becomes, you know, exotic street food or some, you know, it's it's and the pricing and the experience also. Changes with that. Now let me flip it a little and say, this French wines are so part of the French identity that it's to even to communicate, you really have to learn the language. would some people not see it as cultural appropriation on your part then to say, you know, it's it's so so core to my identity. Why should an outsider? You know, because everywhere else in every other facet of our life we talk about diversity, but at the same time we also say cultural appropriation. So I'm just I'm just assuming that a part of the audience might think that question.

Mohona: Because I haven't ever come across being called that it's a cultural appropriation.

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm-hmm.

Mohona: Maybe part of my audience do do think that. Maybe the hardcore French really think that that

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: okay that's an outsider trying to be like us, trying to imitate the things that we like or something. But I would say in this manner I am very fortunate to be surrounded by the French people who do not think like that, who do not think

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm-hmm.

Mohona: that an outsider does not get an o opportunity, an outsider does not get Accepted because no matter the people I'm around with my partners' family, my friends and everyone, they are so open because I feel again, I am really lucky that I didn't get to meet these kind of people because if I have I would have had a huge fight about it, but again, I am Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if they feel about that because I haven't come across anyone saying that to me to my face. Or if they would I would really reply to them and understand what where they are coming from and understand why they think like that. But on the same hand, the a lot of colonial influence comes under into this topic if you if you see like

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, yeah.

Mohona: y they were the ones who were doing the s sorry to use that word slavery. They were the ones exploiting the minority and then if they come up and say that you are doing cultural appropriation I would lose my mind.

Neha Lamba Grover: Okay. Perfect. See, the French appellation system, it basically ties identity to terroir or territory, right? So from a wine perspective, you cannot call something by a certain name unless it comes from that land. So land and identity get tied. And therefore I was asking this question because you know, what does that do to this French sense of identity? Can you be French if you're not from the land? And I'm just wondering how that's because even identity is an evolving concept. Right? If

Mohona: Definitely.

Neha Lamba Grover: some of the problem in today's world in polarization, and I don't know Mohona what you think about I mean what you feel on that topic everybody has a different construct of what purity or authentic what the authentic construct is for anything. And everybody has some mythical time they want to go back to. But the point is it's constantly evolving, isn't it? And where we want to go is something we can choose. So when we talk about India, you know, and there have been so many protests recently, we are always trying to go back to some mythical past which didn't really exist. There was no vegetarianism in India, in in the Mahabharata, they are eating meat. and then we make it a part of our identity. And so, your right to push back, I feel. therefore I find food as a metaphor for identity very apt because people associate with the food of their region so closely. So Have you in all this time found a bridge between, say, Indian food and French wines? Or do they exist like two separate rooms in your head?

Mohona: no. It doesn't Different room, doesn't exist as a different room because I don't know if you've seen or not, I a year ago or one and a half or two years ago, my partner and I we would do this series called Indian food with French wine. We would take food

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm-hmm.

Mohona: from each and every state and we will cook that food and we will pair like I will pair it with French wine. I don't cook. I hate cooking, I don't cook. My partner is the one cooking, just to put it out there. Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. So that's perfect. Perfect and you can pair the wines. Yeah.

Mohona: Exactly. So we used to do that and a lot of French have come and told me that they are so like they are they feel so happy knowing that their wine can be paired with this kind of food. They did not expect something like that. So, as so many French people have come across and told me that they are so French people I'm saying French winemakers who have whose wine we have used in the series have come across and told me that they are so happy that their wine could be paired with a f cuisine like that. Because Indian cuisine is enormous. It's it it's gigantic. You have the the regional cuisines, you have then sub regional cuisines and then it also depends upon each and every family how they are doing

Neha Lamba Grover: Exactly.

Mohona: it. So that is something which they did not expect something like that can happen because their knowledge I I am saying I'm not generalizing but I'm saying from the experience I have had and people I have met that the French cuisine knowledge sorry the Indian cuisine knowledge in French are only until butter chicken nan and

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, yeah.

Mohona: Maybe few of them knows Vindaloo and when I tell them that Vindaloo is actually a Portuguese dish, it's not really an Indian historical dish which comes from so much and but in because of a lot of Portuguese influence and chickenly Portuguese and

Neha Lamba Grover: It's goonies, yeah. It's goonies but heavily influenced by the Portuguese cooking traditions, yeah.

Mohona: and Chicken tikamasala, which is not Indian, which was introduced by the Scottish people.

Neha Lamba Grover: British.

Mohona: So when I really tell them these, they are actually shocked because they do not know anything about Indian food in that perspective. And this includes my partner as well, because when he had met me, he only knew butter chicken and naan, that's it. But then he travelled

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: to India with me, he now explores so many cuisines, his his family as well knows about so much from me and everything. So I feel I feel French are snobbish when it comes to their own food because they feel their food is the best. But I also feel that they are open to new flavours and experiences. They

Neha Lamba Grover: I guess the concept of terua should if they understand the concept of terroa in France, and then you look at a vast area like India, it should that it should be easy to explain and translate to how regional cuisines could use different spices. Even the staples are different, right? You could be eating bhajara roti somewhere and just rice, the other places. You could be eating with your hands somewhere, not because you're eating paratha, right?

Mohona: Exactly.

Neha Lamba Grover: And there could be usage of fish. But even the British, I mean Lizzie Collingham had written this book called Curry. I love the title of her book because it simplifies what everybody does and reduces Indian cuisine to a curry or a flavor. I

Mohona: In into one thing word, yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: had in one of my meal kits, they had given me curry powder and I was freaking out because I was like, What do you mean curry powder or curry flavor? Somebody would say curry flavor, I said, there's a flavor. Like, I didn't there was

Mohona: Hehehehehe

Neha Lamba Grover: curry flavor. One flavor? And then Lizzie's book explained the history to me. And then I had her on my podcast talking about how they were trying to capture the essence of Indian food and take it back. So they created a powder. But Indian cooking is not just about a set of ingredients. Every home has their recipes. Then they talk about the water making a difference, but there's also a sequence in which the spices have to be added. You have to roast something first, then you add the other.

Mohona: Exactly.

Neha Lamba Grover: You can't And then the British went and segregated them into four because what they thought was a dominant, right? So so I so I think the French should may not have enough information because maybe the relationship colonial relationship wasn't that strong with India, but it should be easy to translate for them, don't you think?

Mohona: easy but also they are very ignorant. They

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, okay.

Mohona: They would listen but then ignore the entire point about it. So like

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: about the curry powder my god. When I came to France was when I was introduced what actually curry powder means and I had I

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: had like a entire breakdown, like nervous breakdown that what is this thing? Because I have never seen something like that in my entire life, first of all. And

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: then I see that there is something known as curry powder and people are using it and then The breaking point was when a few of my classmates invited me for Indian meal and then they said they are doing curry and I was a bit hesitant already. but

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: I was like, okay, let's just give them a chance. Let's see what curry they are doing. And then they put the curry powder with cream and chicken, and I was like, Mmm, okay, never mind.

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm.

Mohona: So I

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: I I was so shocked when I see that something like this existed. So same at my partner's mum's place, she had curry powder and then when I was at her place and everything and I was talking to her and stuff and now she doesn't have curry powder. Now she's every time we are going back to India she's just like, you know, can you give me bring me these spices? Can you bring me these spices? Sh I am so happy, at least out of so many French, one French does not have curry powder in their home and And

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: I was able to eliminate that element because what do you mean curry powder? What is curry? Like, come on, like you like even at home we never say we are having curry because if I tell my mum that I I want to eat curry, my mom will give me an expression like what w is she sick or what? Like what do you mean by curry? What do you mean by curry exactly? Because

Neha Lamba Grover: What do you want to eat? Yeah, exactly. I know if someone tells me I love curry, I tell them I love sandwich. I figured it out very politely. I say, I love sandwich.

Mohona: I love that. I love that.

Neha Lamba Grover: What do you mean? I was like, exactly. So so I find it a very simple way. And of course, when you don't know something, you're not really being dismissive, you just don't know it, right? And that that lends the it ends up prompting them to ask and discuss Anyone who wants to can find out more. But so going back to the French, then, if they they take so much pride in their food, they take so much pride in their wines, how do they feel about other wine-growing cultures? If they emulate the traditions that the French have, is that more respected? Japan or US wines, for instance, or is somebody trying something more innovative? What is the hierarchy in their mind, like with Italian, Argentinian wines? Does

Mohona: So

Neha Lamba Grover: Indian wine even exist in their map? Mind map?

Mohona: Okay, so again two different type of people met I've come across one who feel that French wine is superior and even though they would love few Italian wines and one From Argentina and Chile, South Africa, Australia, but they would still opt if you give you give them a menu, they will still end up choosing a French wine because they know that French wine is the best for them. Then the other kind of people who are curious, who are really eager to know. I feel these kind of people are from my generation, which I've come across and millennials and everyone, that they are curious to know about wines from different regions, about wine practices from different types of the different parts of the world and to understand if they can come and do it in their own winery as well to understand if if it's possibility to do it in their own winery. Because They know that okay, what they have inherited from their parents and everything, that is there, the tradition is there. But what new can they bring? Because my generation is really asking like what new can you bring to the table? Are you going to sell us that same old heavy tannic Bordeaux or what? Like what new are you bringing to the table? What is why is your story different from the other winemaker? What is making you different? What are your different practices and even sustainable practices which you are doing? So I have met these two different kinds of people, and I respect both of them because both of both these people have their own ideology, they have their own kind of opinion and mind in a different manner. I for me, I prefer to know and ask questions to the winemakers whenever possible. If they travel a lot, have they tried other regions' wine and what they think about it, and have they put in any practice in their own wines, like learn something from the other region and put it in their own wine. Or the ones who hasn't traveled, why or like have they tried different kind of wines and why they don't like it. So I always kind I kind of ask these questions very upfront to the winemakers to understand where they are coming from, what do they think and everything. So I'm very honest in that I and I try to understand everything and try to learn from them, maybe they have a different perspective which will give me a new idea and a new window to look upon. So I feel I cannot generalize French in that. And two people, two different opinions and some are learning, some are still hoping to be stuck with the traditions. And I feel Borgoan as a region, as a whole region is very traditional. But there are so

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm-hmm.

Mohona: many new generation winemakers who are coming in and doing such great work here. So yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. So what is your personal opinion of the wines outside France? What are you most impressed by? I I mean I've seen you refer to some of the Japanese winemakers. but you know, tell us what you think about these efforts outside France.

Mohona: So when I was in India I had a lot of Australian wines because India has a free trade agreement with Australia. So the Australian wines do not have taxes and it's very easy to access Australian wines in India. So my first introduction to Chardonnay was that heavy buttery oak Chardonnay which I had, and I didn't even know a fresh mineral Chardonnay could exist as well. That only I only got to know when I came to France actually. So my idea is very international. I love French wines, no doubt. I love French wines, but I also love wines from outside France. I have known so many beautiful winemakers from the region of Piemont. Japanese wine. I love Japanese wine. The reason I love their wine is because they do not follow the European idea of fine. They adjust and accommodate according to their weather conditions because Japan is very humid, has a lot of rainfall and all of these perspectives. Like they accommodate, they adjust and they experiment and then they learn as well. Like to give you a very sweet example, I learnt on my Japan trip last year. we were in Tochiki. And Tochigi has a lot of humidity, it has a lot of elevation, but also plain land. And we could visit the winemakers in the elevation area and in the plain area. So you have a lot of rice fields there, like a lot of people are growing rice there, and you have the rice field and you have the winery here, sorry, the vineyard here. So the soil is really moist, you know. So how are you controlling that moistness in the soil? They use the rice husk to put on the soil of the vineyard to control the moisture in the moisture level in the vineyard. That is something I was like, wow, I would not have thought that that is something possible. Then them using pergola system and then putting a small hat on the grape so that it can save from rain and everything. So I learned so many different perspectives from that and I was just so impressed. Same in Patagonia, such beautiful, beautiful wines coming from there. So I'm really impressed from the wines which are coming from all over. I'm not stuck in one re one region. I learned so many beautiful sparkling roses coming from the UK, which is very interesting for me. So it's it's very interesting. I I am very open to that. Indian wine is also doing great in that category, I would say. few of the small wineries like Fretelli and Grover Zampa, I really love Grover Zampa. their wines are doing so well and they are also adapting and moving forward with the warm climate. They're still adapting and they're still doing such great work. So yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: So with the global warming, how is it impacting wine growing in France? And how is how do you see the world of wines internationally, therefore? Like is there likely to be a shift to more non-French wines? Is

Mohona: So one time I I know that the winemaker said it in a joking way, but he was like, you know, with the entire global warming, I might just go to Canada and buy some midnight vineyards there and grow my wines there. And I think in a few years there this might be a possibility. I I would not be surprised if this happens, to be honest.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Mohona: I will say in in perspective of Bogon, because I live here and I work with the winemakers here and I'm aware about the region that way. the thing in Bogoin is even with climate change, the wines are still going to be beautiful because I feel that the winemakers are really gifted, they know what they are doing, and even if like this year has been so so so bad, if you have followed you had the spring frost, you had the heat wave, you had the forest. Fire until yesterday there was a forest fire just 10 minutes away from our home. So

Neha Lamba Grover: No good. Yeah.

Mohona: this year has been really difficult in terms of growing because the moment the heat started in February suddenly, and then there was a frost in March and April. There was a early bud break, and the buds then started to freeze because of spring frost. There were like a lot of environmental factors this year, and I hope. And I really hope the wines shine through because there was through this adversity because it was it was very difficult, like with the entire weather conditions. But all the veterans in the industry, especially those who worked in Bogon and those who are still working, they feel that even with the climate change they will end up adapting and doing great wines, which I feel I'm sure that they will end up doing that. So, yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: What just said about evolving and wines, I think that ties back to my conversation where we were talking about how identity evolves. As the nature of the French wine and the way they build it evolve, somewhere slowly there could be a subtle change in even how they look at themselves or their identity, because you know, wines might start growing somewhere else, or they might learn to appreciate wines from somewhere else Is there a French wine cliche or rule that you think is basically overrated? And so and everyone's too polite to point it out, that you'd like to point out.

Mohona: That you cannot put ice cubes in your wine. You can.

Neha Lamba Grover: just yesterday I was at at an art gallery. There was an exhibition opening and I was drinking water and there were short of glasses. So I was told, quickly drink it up so I can give you wine. I had ice left So yes, I had to have it with the ice.

Mohona: Honestly, you can have your wine with ice if it's like I'm so sorry.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. So I did have that polite awkward silence that we're talking about where neither knew what the right thing to do was.

Mohona: So sorry, but a lot of winemakers who are making the regional appellations and they are actually motivating people to have their wines with ice because

Neha Lamba Grover: Okay.

Mohona: with the climate and everything, you need ice with it's so hot outside if you're having wine. Because I don't know how much it's in Fahrenheit, but in Celsius it is like 40-38 degrees Celsius, and if you're having an outside event, you would want your wine. Be cold because it's so hot. The second also is that red wines cannot you cannot have chilled red wines because what? Because you can like you can have game as a chilled wine, you can have young Pinot Noah as chilled, because what is this ideology that or a myths that red wines cannot be chilled or it cannot be served in a certain temperature? Long back it would be like a room temperature, but now With the climate change and everything, the room temperature is also changing. So

Neha Lamba Grover: He is home, okay.

Mohona: you cannot serve red wine in a room temperature now because the room temperature is only so

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm.

Mohona: hot now. So yeah, the the these two, yeah. Yeah, these two are the things.

Neha Lamba Grover: Okay, perfect. No, that the both are pertinent because it is those unspoken rules that lie heavy in the air about certain behaviors to do with wine that you can't violate. But yeah, yeah, these are these are perfect. because they are literally in that category of a cliche where everyone's too polite to say something.

Mohona: Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: But thank you so much. I mean, I could carry on. but it's it's been super fun chatting with you. I could go on and on just because this area of food and identity that you've been flirting with around the conversation of myth busting on wine. is really in the same wheelhouse of my interest. And when I follow you and see your posts, I find that there's such an overlap of stuff that I'm discussing with guests on the podcast. And when you were mentioning some of them that I had just recently interviewed, I thought, actually I must get Mohona to come and chat because I think we'll have an excellent conversation, which

Mohona: Sweet.

Neha Lamba Grover: we did. So thank you so much, Mohona, for coming on Bye.