Episode 10: Fermenting Wisdom with Dr Julia Skinner

Neha Lamba Grover: welcome everyone to No Forks Given. Today we have with us Dr. Julia Skinner. She is a food historian, founder of an organization called Root Kitchens that focuses on fermentation and food history education. She's the author of books like Afternoon Tea, a History, co-author of Our Fermented Lives with Sandra Katz. and an author of essential food preserving. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Skinner. PhD is in library and information sciences, right? How did you, how did you get to becoming a food historian? How did the connection work out?

Julia: Thank you. Yes. So during my master's program I studied like s rare books and book history. And so I was working with rare cookbooks. And so in the process of that, you know, I started making recipes from them and kind of diving down research rabbit holes and that's where I got here.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. And you've created a 2000 year old mead recipe, recreated it, right? What was that experience like?

Julia: Mm-hmm. It's actually really easy. because a lot of these traditional fermentation techniques, you know, we're not necessarily using really specialized materials or anything. We're using, you know, the kind of stuff that we would have had around. We're using things like, you know, simple containers and, you know, basic ingredients and combining them in ways that are delicious. And so

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: Two thousand year old meat is really just, you know, honey and water and whatever kind of herbs and spices you might add in. so yeah, it it was very it was very simple to make and it was really good too. It's very tasty. Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: it tasted good. has it evolved that we need to learn, relearn? Is it an acquired taste, do you think? Have you tried other recipes?

Julia: Think some of them are definitely an acquired taste. But a lot like a lot of them, you know, our palettes still recognize, you know, things like pickles or mead or you know, different sweets and jams and things. but yeah, some of them, you know, there there's some things that are like flavor combinations we don't necessarily do anymore. Like there was one tart that I baked like years ago that was like a sweet.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: pastry but it had garlic in it and it was from like the sixteen hundreds and like it tasted good but it was not something I think most people now would eat or like.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and there are a lot of old dessert recipes, even from medieval times that I've come across in Europe that have meat in them. And there are certain concepts and combinations that are so alien to us. Right. So what was I mean, books, old books and then, food history. Is there any very unique recipe that you've uncovered in your ancient textbooks? I mean, you've given an example of this specific combination of flavors. But I'm just thinking of something that was really

Julia: Mm.

Neha Lamba Grover: just surprised you.

Julia: So one of the first recipes that I ever worked with from this one was from sixteen fifteen, was a recipe for quince marmalade. And so as I'm sure you and your listeners know, quince is a kind of like a very firm tannic apple. And it, you know, you usually cook it until it oxidizes and turns really red. But this particular recipe was for

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: a marmalade that was cooked really quickly so it kept a really light blonde color. and that was interesting because I made it both ways, both by oxidizing it and by not. And I was surprised they actually tasted the same. So that was an interesting discovery. Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Interesting thing. So when we're talking about the past, we're talking about foods, we also talk about how we eat. And, my podcast is called No Forks Given because it's a bit of a nod to eating with your hands, you know. And historically, I think all civilizations eat with hands. When did people start becoming very proper about the use of forks and knives? And can you talk a little bit about that?

Julia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I am not an expert on like s the history of table etiquette, but what I know is, you know, I mean we see, like you said, like around the world, many people still don't eat with forks and knives. And in Europe I think they didn't until what Middle Ages, early modern period, like it was, you know, relatively recent in the span of history.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: But people got really, really into etiquette during the Victorian period. You saw a lot of that where you'd have all these different kinds of forks and knives. And Americans actually, even more so than Europeans, were really, really strict about etiquette. like a lot of I think part of it was maybe an insecurity about being like, we don't have this like, you know, centuries old history we're drawing from, and so we're gonna like be really I don't know, really strict about etiquette to try to make up for it.

Neha Lamba Grover: And I mean, your book about tea, for instance, right? The etiquette around tea drinking is, I think, from a culinary perspective, that is one food item that I think associates with etiquette a lot. And I'm talking English etiquette as much as, say, Japanese tea-consuming etiquette and so on. know, they're very different. So how did, you know, can you talk a little bit about that?

Julia: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so when you look at the history of tea, you you know, when you well you look at it in England specifically, because I'm you know, afternoon tea is an English convention, that, you know, I mean, I know you know this, but that's spread all over the world, thanks to English colonialism.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: T initially was very much a like high, you know, like upper class expensive thing. And so there was a lot of objects and etiquette that went around it because it's the special expensive thing that you're, you know, sharing with people, and so you have to have it locked in its own little box and you bring it out and have the special, you know, cups and all the things with it. and you know, that sort of

Neha Lamba Grover: What?

Julia: having specific objects to go with T, right? continued on. Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: The whole paraphernalia of serving it becomes the service.

Julia: Yeah, yeah. And then you have, you know, once we kind of keep going and tea becomes somewhat more affordable, you know, then you get all kind of the rituals of the different foods and you get afternoon tea in the way that that adapts to different places around the world. But there's the core, you know, stopping and having the tea with whatever snacks, but what the snacks are and what it looks like kind of varies depending place to place.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, so it is still something about community, right? There is something about community in India. When the British got addicted to having tea and didn't want to rely on China, they had started growing it in India. For the longest time, they couldn't get the Indians to drink tea. And there was a very large concerted effort at educating them, which was like unheard of in terms of the scale and the number of. things that they did. However, Indians only started drinking tea when they made it their own. The way they make it, the recipe, there's a casualness to it, but it's community. know my family, whenever we're sitting together, someone will order a cup of tea, which is very different from say my husband's family because they grew up on the tea gardens that, you know, with an overlap with the British as they were leaving and they were used to the whole customary British style of tea service. Whereas my family, you know, will drink seven, eight cups a day, but just so they can sit around and chat and it's made very differently and in a very Indian manner.

Julia: Mm.

Neha Lamba Grover: That's why was thinking about how interesting it was. So fermentation is an area of great interest for you. And in our fermented lives, which is the name of your book, you've looked at fermented foods across cultures. You've talked about how fermentation has shaped human culture. Can you talk a little bit about that? What's an example, for instance, of fermented food that carries a whole community's history in a jar?

Julia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. I mean, gosh, there are so many, and so many rich traditions. It's like one of those things, you know, you're like you start down the rabbit hole and you're just learning about it for the rest of your life. Like there's no end. one that immediately comes to mind is in jira, the bread in Ethiopian food, the like spongy bread, I know it's so good.

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah. Ethiopia, yeah, I love it.

Julia: But that like, you know, I mean, again, we're talking about something that's relatively simple to make that is ubiquitous, like a lot of people make it and serve it, but then have you their own variations. But it also is a tradition that's been carried on for centuries and is, you know, become sort of a bedrock of the culture. and I think we see that with fermentation and preserving traditions around the world.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so, so fermentation then because fermented foods are so much more tedious to make, right? And so you there's a lot of I think families pass their recipes and techniques down in a state. It's a lot of commitment. I know I grew up. associating certain foods like that with my grandparents' homes. As the world was becoming faster and faster in the cities, I wasn't seeing a lot of it being made at home with the parents. But over time, I lost touch with it because I just associated with the grandparents. Now I find that there is a heightened sense of awareness about gut health, microbiomes, and people are looking into fermented foods. And now I'm re-looking at those foods. as fermented foods because I didn't, you know, as a child I didn't focus on technique. So when did, when did our societies get so worried about bacteria? Was it back, was that the reason that we forgot fermented foods for such a long time and now we're looking back at it or is there some other reason?

Julia: Mm-hmm. There's a few reasons. I think one of them has to do with, like you said, the pace of life. Like fermentation asks us to go at a different pace. It's not, you know, it's not hard to do, but it's not instant, and we're in a very instant gratification moment. But there's also, you know, to your point about the bacteria, yeah. I mean, we had this period of time where

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: know, we discovered like, one of the ways in which we can get sick is by pathogenic microbes. And then so there kind of became a fear of all microbes. It's like, like all of these must be bad. and we're now starting to have a little more nuance in the conversation where we recognize like pathogenic microbes and like, you know, the microbes that make sauerkraut or, you know, whatever are not the same thing.

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Julia: and one of them is healthy for us. But for years people were were and I mean still are scared of bacteria. Like I have every time I teach a fermentation class, at least one person is like, How do I do this so I don't get sick? Like, am I gonna die if I make this wrong? And you know, it's like it's like no, like fermented vegetables are very, very safe. Like they're you know, they're so safe to make. and you just have to follow some best practices, but it

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Julia: takes a lot of unlearning and relearning because we've been taught, you know, microbes are bad, microbes make you sick.

Neha Lamba Grover: So what's a super safe recipe that you would tell somebody who's a beginner? mean.

Julia: I so I always start with something like just brine, so salt and water, room temperature, and then pour that over like some carrots or some, you know, fresh green beans or you know, so just some vegetable you want to pickle and then start that way. Keep it under the brine, let it ferment for, you know, however many days, you know, four days, ten days, you know, depending how pickly you want it.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Julia: And that's it. I mean, as long as you keep it under the brine and have the right amount of salt in the brine, like it it will probably turn out pretty well.

Neha Lamba Grover: And so when you looked at fermentation techniques across cultures, did you find fermentation being used across all cultures or did you find a pattern where you felt that only certain kinds of cultures were using it?

Julia: So it's interesting because every culture uses at least one fermentation technique. And there are some places where you see it a lot more, and some places you don't see it as much. So, like, for example, I live in Ireland most of the year and there are fermentation, there's a lot of dairy fermentation there, for example, but you don't see as much like fruit and vegetable fermentation, or the variety rather of fruit and vegetable fermentation that you might see in like a more tropical place. so yeah, but it's it's everywhere. Like every every place uses it.

Neha Lamba Grover: As you study foods and culinary traditions, do you believe in the concept also that there's some sort of a, I mean, politics plays into some sort of a hierarchy as well in cuisines because, and I'm talking about how French food is artistry and maybe Indian, Chinese foods becomes an exotic meal that you're tossing.

Julia: Mm.

Neha Lamba Grover: very quickly. And the same thing when you apply to the world of fermentation. Very often when I started rediscovering some of these old dishes that I was forgetting or some that are even mainstream like in Jeera, there's a dosa in South India, right? Which seems very familiar but has different texture and so on. But they don't grab the attention. And do you think there is some sort of relationship between what foods grab attention in mainstream culinary studies? and the status of those cultures or countries in the world or is there some other dynamic at play?

Julia: No, I think absolutely. I mean, you know, the way that established hierarchies, you know, exist, view, you know, European cultures as being like, you know, the cultures, like here, you know, here's like these, you know, French food is the best and Italian food is the best, and you know, these are, you know, kind of the pinnacle of cuisine. And then other cuisines.

Neha Lamba Grover: Mm-hmm.

Julia: are like seen as less than that, even though there are equally rich traditions, you know, in Mexico and India and China, like all over the place. but yeah, I think, you know, you certainly see that with cuisine in general. And you know, I'm I think with fermentation to some extent too, because you see like the sort of ferments that we eat every day, it's like it's considered not special enough to be noteworthy. It's like a a tradition that people don't think to write down 'cause it's like, everybody does it. Like everybody makes DOSA or everybody makes, you know, Indira or whatever. Like there's so much of it around that it's like, whatever. Like that's not, you know, special, even though it is.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, for instance, Japanese food over time has managed to get that level of prestige around that they can charge premium prices at restaurants. And at the same time, most of the premium cuisines at a given time in history tend to also have a lot of etiquette around it because then it starts becoming premium. I find that

Julia: Mm.

Neha Lamba Grover: Just watching right in front of my eyes how Korean food has become very fashionable and premium, almost pushed by governments. But I think there's also, and therefore the fermented Korean dishes like kimchi, et cetera, have also become very fashionable. So sometimes I feel like if it's not just the status of a country becoming more relevant economically, it is some push by the government, et cetera.

Julia: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Neha Lamba Grover: But you've also written about food security, inequality, and some of those aspects, right? And about appropriation. to you, mean, where is that line between, say, cultural exchange and appropriation, especially when it comes to traditional foods? How do you think about that? Because you're constantly exchanging ideas. The groups that are migrating, when does it stop becoming?

Julia: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Neha Lamba Grover: And then there's limitation of ingredients. So there's appropriation, but there's also modifications. So how do you think about it?

Julia: huh. I think it has to do at least partly with intent. I think it's very you know, it's a nuanced conversation, but I think, you know, appropriation is like, you know, me as a white person from America coming in and saying like, Ooh, you make this thing, I like it, I'm gonna like I'm gonna take this. Like it has this very like colonizing sort of like, this is mine now. I'm taking this and I'm either not acknowledging Or I'm not yeah, like there's some way in which I'm pretending like I discovered this and I'm like I'm making this new, as opposed to being like, hey, this was an exchange, somebody taught me how to do this, or these ingredients are now being, you know, imported into the place I live and I'm working with them and learning about them. it f it feels like it gets down to that intent of like, are you

Neha Lamba Grover: Okay.

Julia: Are you learning and exchanging or are you taking?

Neha Lamba Grover: You've also been a big advocate against food waste. What are your thoughts on that? I there is a lot of wastage of food in the world and technically the world produces two or three times the amount of food that is needed to feed the eight billion people that live on this planet and yet so many go hungry. So what exactly is, you what is your thought on that?

Julia: mean I think you know, I primarily work with food waste at the like consumer and household level. So like what we can do, you know, ways I can repurpose scraps, ways you can, you know, repurpose, you know, peels and tops and things from vegetables, that kind of stuff. And I think that's really important and that's, you know, more within my purview because I'm a culinary educator. But I think I think the biggest part of this conversation to have is how much of that waste is

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Julia: done in a way that's like beyond our control as individuals. whether it's, you know, large grocery conglomerates, or agricultural firms like wasting things in order to do pricing control or s you know, stuff like that. So I think there's there's a few levels to that conversation.

Neha Lamba Grover: So what is that food scrap that you think 99 % of the people throw away that you would advise that they don't?

Julia: So I am a big fan, and this is like the example I always use in classes and things, is carrot tops. you basically can use them like parsley. And I think you know, a good number of people do use them. but a lot of people are just like, like that's you know, I want the carrot, like that just you know, the tops just go in the compost or something. And it's like, no, you can make like a pesto out of them or you can use them, you know, as a garnish, so yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Wow. And then there's nutrition, you also save on nutrition as well. You've also talked about food as a tool for human connection and memory. mean, reviving historic dishes, of course, you've lost a connection and you're jumping a gap. But is there a stranger's dish that you have had, which is not something that you thought you would be familiar with, but that has connected to your own sense of identity in any way?

Julia: Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hm. So there's a dish when the I had gosh, what was it? About a decade ago. it's not as common. It used to be more common in Scotland. and it's basically this beverage made out of like leftover bits from harvesting and milling oats. And it was interesting because the first time I had it the flavor was very familiar to me, even though I had never

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah.

Julia: had it before. Like

Neha Lamba Grover: So, I mean, you've referred to spending time between Ireland and the United States. So how does that change your definition of home food? mean, identity, I feel, is so closely tied to food and flavors and therefore the connection with memory. How do you then think of home food?

Julia: Mm-hmm. Mm. I feel like it's an evolving definition the more time I spend. I find when I come back to the US I get really like there's certain foods that I can't really get in Ireland that I'm just like, I have to go get, you know, like soup dumplings and I have to go get Ethiopian food and I have to go get like submarine sandwiches and like all these like and I go and get all these things. and so

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Julia: Part of home food is like engaging with that unique, you know, with foods that I can only get in one place or the other. But then I'm also finding there are things that have become kind of the anchor foods. like I have my sourdough starter and my yogurt starter I have on both continents. It's the same starter. I just brought some of it over to Ireland as well.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Julia: And so those have ended up kind of being the anchor for that because the ingredients I can get aren't always the same and the diversity of food in the US, you know, is greater than in Ireland. and so but the you know, the kind of core components of my diet remain the same.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, I can relate to it because my kids are born and raised in the US. at a very early age, I started leaving them in India for the summer months. So when they would come back, they would, from their airport, want to, my son would want his root beer and a hot, like plain margarita pizza. He wanted it just that way. It became a thing. And then there were things that everybody had to receive him with when they went to India. And then,

Julia: Mm.

Neha Lamba Grover: He started writing about Indian food and had a podcast on it. So somewhere, think those two strains of being American, but having some sort of an Indian identity is going to merge. because food is his language, for my daughter, it's a little different. So each person finds their sort of range. So it's interesting how you're evolving yours. If you pick...

Julia: Mm. Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: If you have to pick one historical preservation technique that you think that people in modern day kitchens desperately need to bring back, what would that?

Julia: I mean, you know, I think there's a lot of techniques that we're you know, we are using, but could be more widespread. I think, you know, lactofermented vegetables is such an easy, versatile way to start playing with this stuff and to you know, to give yourself healthy food that doesn't cost a lot of money or require a lot of equipment to make. I feel like that's something everybody can do that I'd like to see more more widespread.

Neha Lamba Grover: Is there a food myth that you wish would die?

Julia: Mm. I mean, I think the myth that fermented foods are, you know, or like fermented vegetables are like dangerous or gonna, you know, gonna get you.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, okay. Is there a fermented food that you think everyone should try before they die?

Julia: Gosh that's a hard question because I think there are so many that are you know so good.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Julia: Hmm, when everybody should try. I mean, I think I one that I've been really enjoying lately is Tapache, fermented pineapple. yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: wow, I've never tried that. Now you got me intrigued. And is that a tradition from a particular culture? I mean, how did you become aware of it?

Julia: That's very good. Yeah, so it's it's I've I think the person I learned it from learned it from Mexico, but it's around Central America. You get different versions of it. But it's it's either alcoholic or not pineapple drink and it's usually used making the scraps from cutting down pineapples.

Neha Lamba Grover: Okay. Okay, in Goa they have a alcoholic beverage called feni which is also derived from, I mean not from pineapple, but the palm tree that they have there and as Goanese food evolved with Portuguese influence, used to ferment a lot of, it's used to add to the recipes in most Goanese food which is again unique to that little

Julia: I think. Mm.

Neha Lamba Grover: part of India, which is very interesting. And finally, I've just touched the surface of some of the areas that you're looking into, fermentation being a core interest of yours. Where should the listeners find your work?

Julia: Yeah. Yeah. So on social media, my handle is bookish Julia. and you can then navigate to all my other I have three other accounts for my culinary work and for the creative work and like book coaching that I do. and they can also find my newsletter at root kitchens com slash newsletter.

Neha Lamba Grover: Perfect. So thank you so much. It was really an interesting chat, but I'm going to keep reading and following your work and see where this goes.

Julia: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks for having me.