What's your beef? Cuisine as a political tool

Neha Lamba Grover: Welcome everyone to No Forks Given. I have with me Abhinandan Sekhri, who is the founder and CEO of Newslaundry, which is an independent media outlet ⁓ based in India. Welcome Abinandan. ⁓ Thank you. And you for joining me and ⁓ Eid Mubarak,

Abhinandan Sekhri: Thank you Neha, pleasure being here.

Neha Lamba Grover: Thank you. And our our topic today because it's you know, cuisine as a political tool, I just thought it's very auspicious that we are having this discussion on EID given all the ⁓ the politicalevents leading up to this ⁓ particular ED this year.

Abhinandan Sekhri: Mmm.

Neha Lamba Grover: Let's talk first a little bit about what's been happening in West Bengal with the new BJP government there and ⁓ the attempted ban on slaughter of cows leading up to Eid and that all shaped up in the last few weeks.

Abhinandan Sekhri: So I think this is a BJP flex of their entire cultural project, which in my view was the only project they had to begin with. There's no economic project or plan. There is no other significant project. It was always a cultural project. Now, for example, in Delhi, Kapil Mishra, who's not what portfolio he has in Delhi, said, will not allow cows to be cut on Eid. When was it allowed for cows to be cut on Eid in Delhi? It is just you reiterate stuff that was already there or you say it louder or you say it as a dog whistle. So this entire, know, flexing of my meat versus your meat or those ⁓ of the BJP who went and started before the Bengal election dismantling the fish shops in Chitranjan Park. And then, of course, the BJP told them go and apologize because you cannot win Bengal if you tell them not to eat fish. So then suddenly they became veg there and Anurag Thakur stuffing his face with fish. So I mean, I just find the use of cuisine and, you know, meats, it's, are dog whistles. There's no consistency. There is, it's a free for all, whatever works, works, whatever sticks, sticks. And because our media does such a terrible job of interrogating or investigating incidents, statements by people who matter. They get away with it. That's where we are basically.

Neha Lamba Grover: But the interesting thing to me in this in specifically in West Bengal was that it's a very Muslim majority state. And ⁓ the elections, the timing of it and the victory of the BJP was just a few weeks before Eid. And so it led to this whole noise around we will not let Muslims slaughter the cows And I think, and I'm saying the way the politics played out was very interesting that the Muslim leadership got together and said, you know, we'll make a big deal of the fact that we will not slaughter any cows, and refusing to buy, and really calling their bluff. Because, as you said, it was just ⁓ you know, restating things just.

Abhinandan Sekhri: Hmm.

Neha Lamba Grover: For attention without really thinking about the economic impact on their voter base, which led to you know, this particular I think it was a master stroke, I think, on the part of the Muslim leadership to start owning you know this particular issue of preventing the cow ban.

Abhinandan Sekhri: Yeah, but I'm not sure that will achieve anything. mean, can, you can, even Bapu had said that, you know, turning the other cheek would not work with adversary who did not understand or a morally higher ground. He says the British for all their flaws were cognizant of there is a morally higher ground. Against an adversary like Hitler, there is no morally higher ground.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: you couldn't do the most horrible things and it's all good.

Neha Lamba Grover: But is this morally high ground or is this a very clever move to expose the fact that the people who are going to get impacted, the people who are selling the cows are actually Hindu owners? Because I mean, ironically, India's also the third largest beef exporter in the world, right?

Abhinandan Sekhri: Neha, film has played out before. Indian Express had done a and excellent report, I think, maybe four five years ago. It was a full-page report on this particular forest in Madhya Pradesh that had become a health hazard because it had just so many cow carcasses, because normally which would be sold to Muslim... make leather, to make other stuff. They said we don't want to these because you could get lynched. So when cow or buffalo became unproductive, they would just go and leave it in this forest to die and everyone started doing it and there were hundreds of carcasses there if not thousands rotting away. But what did that do? Of course people's ⁓ lives impacted, the economic outcomes were impacted.

Neha Lamba Grover: Hmm. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: But in a game as rigged as the media is, investigating agencies are. See, ⁓ now, I mean, ⁓ we're talking politics and we'll do the intersection of food and politics, you don't even have to win an election to win a state. You can lose an election and break the party later and win. It's happened in Madhya Pradesh. It's happened in Goa. It's happened in Maharashtra. They're trying that in Punjab.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: What I'm saying is the whole concept of what is winning and losing they've turned on its head. You can lose and a year later still win.

Neha Lamba Grover: You don't need to get the votes really. You can even get the MLAs later. You can yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: Yeah, the ways of, think it's elections have become a non-serious issue unfortunately. ⁓

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Which then means that there is no pressure on the government to do anything other than create gimmicky sort of Yeah. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: Exactly, governance does not matter. You take Delhi's example. Delhi in the last five months has become a disaster zone with garbage piling up, no one following traffic rules, free for all that's what there's no now, it doesn't matter.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. And and so moving beyond beef as well, right? ⁓ ev I mean the beef the beef narrative has been now building up the last two decades. We've had, you know, the ⁓ Mohammed Aqlaq incident in Dadri in 2015, Pehlu Khan, and there were these, I mean, incidents of hate, you know, hate-related murders which were just based on some whim or suspicion that was storing beef. And 10 years later, it's not going anywhere. In fact, I'm you know, I'm seeing video reels, and you can tell me how true it is because I am you know I'm based outside the country of Hindus keeping pigs in their ⁓ homes and neighbours. To irk Muslims. It's just that kind of nastiness that wasn't there. But even pure vegetarianism, right? It's being weaponized and institutionalized. When was pure vegetarianism even a? I mean, yes, it's been glorified a little bit in the scriptures as a virtue to aspire to in the Hindu scriptures. But in South Asia, in pre-partition India, if you take Bangladesh, Pakistan, and India together, we have the largest population of Muslims and have had for hundreds of centuries. about Dalit diets?

Abhinandan Sekhri: Yeah, it's happening in the society.

Neha Lamba Grover: You know, it's a fairly varied diet, it's not vegetarian. we're talking about Adivasi diets, and heck, even in Hindus, right? We Kshatriya's ⁓ Rajputs eat meat, even Kashmiri pundits eat meat, and suddenly we've got this pure vegetarianism. The scriptures also, you know, Ramayana and Mahabharat, they all have examples of even beef eating. Can you talk a little bit about you know, this is this an orchestrated sort of movement? And I kind of I mean, I know the answer, but for the purpose. Of people who don't, and who's it benefiting? And where does where do you see it heading? Like where you know, where does it keep getting worse, right? So where are we headed with this

Abhinandan Sekhri: You're absolutely right. It doesn't take into account many of the diets which include meat. This vegetarianism as this Hindu thing is... I'm not scholar of scriptures, so I'm not going to say whether scriptures tell us or don't tell us to eat meat. know Buddha is often quoted as being non-vegetarian and in fact having died because he consumed infected meat. But... In sheer numbers, yes, we are not a majority vegetarian country. We have such a large coast, so it is inevitable that we will have people who eat fish and shellfish. it is a very narrow interpretation of a certain Brahminical purity that comes from an RSS kind of mindset. And since right now, the prime minister of is a product of the RSS, that is our understanding, which is also, it's not just limited to diet, it's also limited to linguistic chauvinism, Which is why they're so unpopular in Tamil Nadu. Every now and then, even though they try to, you know, tiptoe around the issue, it slips out. At Hindi, you should learn. At Tamil, you say, why the hell should we learn Hindi? So that's a very narrow interpretation of what is the dietary culture, what should people eat. And of course you also have these influencers, we are in the age of Insta-influencers, I've seen a bunch of them, you know, who start their greeting and every reel with a Jai Sriram and then they tell you that you can become an international level wrestler or athlete by pure vegetarian diet. And they give the example of a few of the that India has produced who are veggie wrestlers. Now what they don't tell you is, what do those wrestlers look like when they stop wrestling? Because the quantities of badam or chana or stuff they have to eat to make up their protein intake is so big that they are unwieldy obese hideous creatures. Because you cannot be a 100 kilo wrestler and be pure vegetarian and then after you stop being a professional, you know, bring your diet down to this much. It ain't happening. Not just the kind of other supplements you need. So what I'd say is which is our leadership matters, Like the menu, when foreign dignitaries come, that menu that went viral on Twitter, this very unappetizing, supremely boring sounding, pure veg menu which had dhokla and fafada and what all. you're serving this to... So in fact, a foreign correspondent who was on our podcast, in fact, the finest in the country, Sohasini was telling us that the diplomats will also when we come for... the dinners hosted by the President Prime Minister, we go back and order room service in the hotel. Because we don't. Like, who are you serving this for? So it's all posturing, it's optics. I mean, just think it is, and like I said, this stuff would not matter. We will not be talking about it. It will not be part of the national narrative. If you had an economic agenda, if you had an economic project, there is no economic project.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: This is the only project. What you will sing, what you will say, what you will eat, who you will sleep with. That is it. I'm not exaggerating. They are a version of the Taliban. They have that envy. And look at the NEET paper leak, the CBSE mess.

Neha Lamba Grover: Name changes of cities and

Abhinandan Sekhri: a leadership that does not value education, science, educated people. They are a meeker version of Pol Pot. So, this is their only agenda, why you will eat, what you will eat, random people pulling you over. We did a documentary on this Monu Manesar, cow vigilante so to speak. Most of these cow vigilantes have complete immunity.

Neha Lamba Grover: Hmm. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: from the state. So,

Neha Lamba Grover: So that and actually you so you touched upon Tamil Nadu there's this effort to homogenize an identity, the national, you know, ⁓ identity and what it should look like. ⁓ Different attributes are food, language, what you wear, what you sing, etc. But then we have strong regional identities in India also, right? And therefore Tamil Nadu pushing back on their language And so it reminded me of the UP, right? The one district, one cuisine list. Six months after UNESCO in declared Lucknow what was it ⁓ Creative city of Gastronomy and specifically in its citation talks about Galauti kebabs and talks about the Avadi Biryani and the One District, One Cuisine eliminates not just these but every non-veg dish. And UP is the

Abhinandan Sekhri: Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: I mean, the Mughals have done the maximum for what we are proud of in our cuisine today. And it's almost, I mean, again, can you talk a little bit about what you see the impact of that will be? I mean, there's an economic cost to that, I mean, so there's a socio-economic cost to that, and you know, and in and there is an impact on how you see yourselves, your identity as well, right? ⁓ again, UP the largest exporter of beef in the country.

Abhinandan Sekhri: So I don't have the data that although Caravan has done a story on the company that exports beef where it's based, you know, it's got political links etc. But on that list that you talked about it was laughable. We discussed on our podcast also it was really silly ⁓ there such interesting stories around the biryani's there, the meats, the gilouti kabab. Just I don't know if it's true or not but the whole Earl of Sandwich inventing the sandwich because he didn't want to leave his table.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: know, that's why his cook said, Sid, I'm gonna leave you because he loved playing bridge or something. So just bring me something I can eat while playing. And apparently that's ⁓ I mean, ⁓ had stuff like I think some Noida bakery or something. know, bakeries and breads of Noida which I've never heard of. ⁓ you when you said there's an economic cost, I come back to them, they don't care. There is no economic project.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, and there are multiple beautiful stories about the Lauti and the Nawab who was foodless and for the food. Yeah. Yeah. No, yeah, yeah. Some I mean there is you you're building ⁓ like people want to visit Lucknow after this, right? You want to try the cuisine. if you are spon if the state is sponsoring certain kinds of foods and negating the others, I was reading some assessment of that and it is an you're reshaping what it means to belong to UP, isn't it? ⁓ and so far I mean they were very proud of people when it came to cuisine.

Abhinandan Sekhri: Yeah. And even then you haven't done a great job, you could have done Hazaratganj ki Chaat which was not there. I used to shoot travel shows between 2003-04 till about 2014-15. I must have shot about 200-250 episodes of various travel shows, the most of them being Highway on my Plate which are I think one of the longest running food and travel shows in the country. So I've shot in Lucknow several times. You know, just, not just Lucknow. so many parts of UP. In fact some meats in the royal family of Pradesh also what is the place called Reva they have some recipes that have been passed down generations Hindu royal family

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. So my question is, are we just erasing the Mughal part because ⁓ so much of the cuisine is colonial, right?

Abhinandan Sekhri: Okay. Yeah, basically. We're not just using the Mughal part because again, I come to the point that they have connected a very narrow understanding of Hinduism or our culture and meat is not part of that. So meat is Mughal. Like I was talking about the royal family of Reva where I've shot with that they have some recipes that are passed down generations, which are meat recipes as well. Now, there are enough royal families in India. You go to Rajasthan. You have many, you know that that

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: food that you cook, you bury it in the hot sand and you make it, I forget what it's called.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. And lal mas and all kinds of things, yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: It's like it doesn't exist because their understanding is that the Mughals made a seat meat before that we are veg. So even if it's a Hindu recipe, it will not be accepted because it has to be veg. You see, Yogi ji is veg, Modiji is veg and they very proud of their veg. It's not like, you know, is your hair curly or straight? It's not a question of, I'm proud it's straight or proud it's curly. It is just a matter of fact. There's no virtue related to having one way or the other. whether I'm a meat eater or non-meat eater, it is just like that. It's an observation. You see, do you like anything? have two hands, I have one nose. It's just a part of, but the, are like you a flag. That understanding that it is some sort of achievement makes it a virtue.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: and therefore if it's not a virtue it could not be Hindu. None of us used to eat meat till we were kids. They said Hindu meat, we didn't know before. So it is such a daft and dumb understanding of how societies evolve, of how human species evolve, but that's where we are now, what can I say?

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so colonial rule doesn't seem to matter. I mean, because if they do that, then Chai. Potatoes, pow. I mean Shiv Sena has often associated itself, you know, with the Marathi identity, which again that's when I'm talking about the regional identities are strong, but then they tend to adopt the Vada Pau. Vada Pau wasn't there till the nineteen sixties, and every single thing that goes into the Vada Pau has a colonial ⁓ story. On I mean the PAO is Portuguese, literally. They came and set up those bakeries. And I mean regional pride pride is very strong strong, and I've i i I I list I when I was reading

Abhinandan Sekhri: Wait.

Neha Lamba Grover: Stories about Odissa and Bengal fighting over the rasgulla. You see how much pride people take in their food on dishes that are barely 100 years old. yet, ⁓ similarly, the national identity is trying to pin itself into this random sort of there's no time period that's being associated with it, and there is you know all that. And so it's it's anti-Mughal, it's anti-so it's it's it takes a little bit of understanding what those nuances are that have been picked up and what happened. So let's talk about you were talking about the foreign dignitaries and what they have what they have served.

Abhinandan Sekhri: Yeah.

Neha Lamba Grover: You know, Thailand and Korea, they do this gastro-diplomacy where they promote their cultures in a very systematic, sponsored manner outside the country. You see a Thai restaurant everywhere, and most of the time, I you know, I used to wonder when I came to the US, how do they survive with l such little traffic? And over the last 10-15 years, I've seen Korean culture get very prominent. It's not just K-pop, it's food and language and you know amongst the youngsters. I just wonder what the government ⁓ I mean, on one hand, do you see them trying to promote something like that? seeing a lot of regional Indian cuisine ⁓ now suddenly flexing. You know, it's not butter chicken. They will all the top New York used to be Lexington kind of curry houses, and suddenly there's a competition for regional foods, South Indian, Bengali. But in this whole mix, do you see a play for a political tool? Do you see the government trying to you know or disown some sort of a narrative? Because Indians abroad are now, you know, taking pride in associating with the cuisine and saying, see how diverse it ⁓

Abhinandan Sekhri: Thank Yeah, so I think especially Indians who are trying to make a living abroad are doing it with an entrepreneurial mindset. If they think there's a market for a particular kind of cuisine, they can market something that's interesting. They are doing it. It is not like they are getting any subsidy or benefits from the government. For example, K-pop was an export of the government of South Korea. They gave a huge push, they spent.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Government, exactly. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: millions and millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. So, no such thing has happened with what Indian cuisine you're talking about. So, because I keep harping on the same thing, there is no economic project. So, if there is no economic project, then there is nothing that is top of mind. Otherwise, what was our biggest soft part of the world? Bollywood? They have finished the cinema in India.

Neha Lamba Grover: The Yeah. There's no agenda, yeah. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: You have to make films that are trashing a community or a country. Otherwise you don't get to make a film. In the last 10-15 years, just trash has come out of here. India always used to produce a lot of trash, a lot of fine cinema, a lot of offbeat cinema. It was a diverse bouquet of stuff we used to produce. Now it's just one type. It is one type of film that will get funded, that will get released. Otherwise your film ain't going anywhere. So, which already...

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: They had a bana banaaya cake, the soft part of Hollywood. They have managed to shit on that. Forget trying to create the new soft part through cuisine. I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so re you so you won't see them doing it. If you did it, it's probably going to be a version of the food that was is being served to dignitaries, but you're not seeing seeing that ⁓ or that That amount of confidence, I would say. and I think the regional pushbacks ⁓ also, I mean, I think it's a moot moo moot question because you're seeing the South also is a very Hindu. I mean, there are lots of temples, it's a very Hindu dominant community, wants to showcase the fact that we do this differently from the way you do it in the north. I've seen speeches even by ⁓ you know, ⁓ I think it

Abhinandan Sekhri: Yeah. Right.

Neha Lamba Grover: Shashi Tharoor talking about how Kerala's experience with Islam has been very different, and don't try to impose you know your negative associations in the north that they're leaning on, down south, etc. So I guess this conflict will carry on for a while. I'll wait to see it. So, but on a on a on a happier note, is there is there a dish that you can think of, and this is just a lighter question, a single dish or ingredient that will embody the complex political tensions. that you're seeing in India today, or South Asia for that matter.

Abhinandan Sekhri: That's a one.

Neha Lamba Grover: What do you think would represent it?

Abhinandan Sekhri: a kitchen. ⁓

Neha Lamba Grover: Kichri is a g very funny one. Yes, it's a good one. And Kichiri actually when you become serious about it, it it's it has a lot of depth and historical

Abhinandan Sekhri: and a khichdi with meat in it, not the veg khichdi.

Neha Lamba Grover: Not the veg khitchri, yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: even I'll say uncle chips are very good to taste but is finishing your body that is what we are seeing in the with the kind of narratives and how our electoral electorate is kept amused by our media eat nonsense finish your health ⁓

Neha Lamba Grover: One quick question also, you know, it came in my mind, you know, associated with culinary Traditions. The kitchen has always in the Hindu household specially been kept a little separate and it's sort of governed by notions of purity, etc. I'm just wondering how much of that impacts ⁓ do we does that kind of casteism continue even now in politics, in terms of who you hire, restaurant etc.

Abhinandan Sekhri: I mean, I don't know about restaurants and other stuff, but I... yeah,

Neha Lamba Grover: Domestic help, yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: It's definitely a thing you see cases of that in our daily lives you read about newspapers whether it is access to wells whether it is where you see that in schools yeah in the midday meals Dalits are now fed with so that it's happening in various degrees in various parts of the country i'm not saying it's happening everywhere like in Delhi but yeah yeah it is real that discrimination exists especially during meal times in fact there was this one case where uh

Neha Lamba Grover: Continue, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: parents of a government school refused to send their children because the woman who was preparing their meals was not what they thought a caste that should be in a kitchen. So yeah, we see that disgustingly.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah. So that's a right breeding ground for this kind of ⁓ politics. So yeah, ⁓ so you know, the world over breaking bread is a metaphor for peace and harmony and sitting together. Do you see anybody having kitchri together in the ⁓ future in India? Or do you think it's gonna be a long struggle? Yeah. Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: I think there's always hope. I always think there's hope. think we have it in ourselves to reach across the island, sit together and be sensible. But leadership has to initiate that. if your leadership doesn't want it, it's not going to happen, which is why leadership matters. I've seen a lot of narratives these days, pretend that leadership doesn't matter. Leaders determine what is value, what is incentivized.

Neha Lamba Grover: Yeah.

Abhinandan Sekhri: So I definitely think as a people show we can do that, but our leaders have to show us the way and our leaders right now unfortunately are not interested. And by leaders I mean the party in power, which is just so powerful right now. And if they're not interested, the likelihood of it becomes less.

Neha Lamba Grover: So we are going to look to maybe cockroaches who are surviving and showing us the way. Yeah. But thanks so much, Abhinandan. It was a pleasure having you and ⁓ you know catch up with you soon.

Abhinandan Sekhri: fully that's it. Yes, thank you so much. a great day.